[huridocs-tech] China's new revolution

DIGITAL FREEDOM NETWORK: Human rights and cyber-rights news

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China's new revolution

URL: www.dfn.org/voices/china/sheffchat.htm

(May 1, 2002) Much has been written about the Internet's potential to
bring about democracy and freedom throughout the world, but there have
been few instances of this actually being carried out. David Sheff, a
journalist who for years has written about Silicon Valley, the base for
most Internet technology advances in the United States, chronicled a
group of young entrepreneurs engaged in trying to bring opportunities and
democracy to their native China in his recently published book, China
Dawn.

Sheff participated in an online chat with DFN to discuss the success of
the those whose hopes and dreams he recorded in his book as well as the
feasibility of transforming the world's most populous nation through the
use of Internet technology. The transcript of this chat, slightly edited
for clarity, follows below.

 
[spacer.gif]

*** David_Sheff has joined #DFN

DFN: Welcome to our online chat with David Sheff, the author of China
Dawn, the story of a group of young Chinese Internet entrepreneurs who
have hopes of revolutionizing China with Internet technology. Welcome,
Mr. Sheff!

David_Sheff: Thank you.

DFN: What kind of changes do the entrepreneurs in your book hope to
accomplish?

David Sheff photo
David Sheff is "cautiously optimistic" that the Internet can bring about
enormous changes in China.

David_Sheff: They are a lot like the entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley, but
they also hope to make a lot of change; they believe that Internet
technology is a truly revolutionary force in China.

DFN: How will they do that?

David_Sheff: Well, by definition, the Internet is a radical force in a
place where communication and information were censored and controlled.

The Net brings radical ideas from abroad and allows the Chinese people to
communicate with each other, perhaps even organizing for social change.

DFN: Thank you. Is this possible, though, even for the vast majority who
live in the country?

Beeman: ... since most people in China don't have Internet access.

David_Sheff: There are only about 35 million online out of 1.3 billion
Chinese. However, the numbers are doubling every 6 months, and the impact
extends even to people who are not online because information from the
Net is passed around in cafes, from hand to hand. In addition, all the
schools in China are being wired, even those in rural areas.

I'm not saying it is a panacea, but it is a powerful force that will
bring change over the course of the next decade. There are already
examples of ways that information technology has blasted through the
traditionally immovable force of the Chinese communist party.

johan: How worried should we be about Internet being a tool more for
reactionary (nationalistic rallying) purposes than as a force for
democratization.

David_Sheff: johan, a good question. It is being used for both. Like in
the U.S., some of the most extreme factions of every type gather online
but as long as the Net remains an open and relatively free place of
communication, my view is that the forces behind a free and pluralistic
China will prevail.

DFN: What have these entrepreneurs accomplished since the publication of
your book?

China Dawn cover
"China Dawn is really about idealistic visionaries who...wanted to go
back and continue the revolution that the students in Tiananmen Square
began."

David_Sheff: There are some dramatic examples of the kind of reaction
from the government to events that would never have been publicized in
China because of the Net. Also it is important to notice that some of the
elites in China that are running the most important progressive companies
were partly educated in the West, which means they understand the values
and priorities that are important to Americans. The story of China Dawn
is really about idealistic visionaries who decided that they wanted to go
back and continue the revolution that the students in Tiananmen Square
began. Now these same people are in prominent positions.

DFN: Interesting. Thank you.

Beeman: Do these entrepreneurs you discuss believe that China's Internet
should be "open"? Do they think that there should be limitations placed
on what goes on online?

David_Sheff: Beeman, they think it should be open, indeed. They are
working in the government and on their own. They are working against the
factions that censor and monitor the Net.

DFN: Thank you. Is the Chinese gov't trying to stop them?

David_Sheff: DFN, like our gov't there are many factions: some are trying
to stop them, but the prevailing forces are supporting them. They're
doing this by investing in their companies, allowing them to accomplish
technological support to create the fastest and longest, in a fraction of
the time it took to create it in the U.S.

lforlano: But, in the West, we are already seeing signs that the Internet
may be increasingly controlled a la Lawrence Lessig's argument. Does this
mean that the Internet's "democratizing" potential may be limited in
China as a result of international ICT policy?

David_Sheff: lforlano, the overriding force is that the technology even
if it is controlled in small ways is so powerful and so radically
different from what previously existed that it will be bring positive
changes. But of course, it is important not to be naive or simplistic,
because we are dealing with an incredibly powerful gov't and a country of
1.3 billion people which also has poverty and other problems, but
information technology is one of the most powerful forces bringing
change.

lforlano: Thank you.

Beeman: Follow-up: But would they go so far as to allow groups such as
the Falungong (which the gov't of course considers dangerous) free rein
on the Internet? Many Chinese would not support that.

David_Sheff: Beeman, the entrepreneurs believe in a free and open
Internet, but the government attempts to stop them. The Falungong and
others still operate largely online, however. In fact, without the
Internet they would have been crushed already.

There are some factions in the Chinese government who are trying to stop
the entrepreneurs, but most are helping their work.

johan: Thanks for the answer; Then the crucial thing is keeping the Net
free from both party-state intervention and the nondemocratic big
business. Are not Ed. Tian and Bo Feng more representatives of business
interest and a popular form of nationalism (like your book reveals quite
a lot of I think).

David_Sheff: Johan, they believe that technology is inherently neutral,
but as a neutral force in China, it has the potential to allow the people
to be educated, and to participate in conversations with those beyond
China's borders. This is not about nationalism, it's about a free and
open society. In particular, Ed Tian and Bo Feng believe in an open
China. That is why they are there doing this work.

johan: Thank you David, I get your point. Another Q: how would you
describe the Chinese hacker community? Anti-west or apolitical?

David_Sheff: johan, the Chinese hacker community is incredibly diverse
and interestingly they are sometimes anti-west and sometimes
anti-government. They criticize their government for attempting to
control the technology and they successfully open the Net when the gov't
puts up its blocks. At the same time, when the US seems to be aggressive
or arrogant, like during the Spy Plane crisis or the bombing in Belgrade
of the Chinese embassy, the hackers use the Net to fight back against
what they see as U.S. imperialism. However, if they view their government
as repressive or simply stupid, they turn their energies against Beijing.
It is why I argue that our government should do whatever it can to build
bridges between the U.S. and the Chinese people.

johan: Really interesting, thanks!

DFN: What makes these people think they can succeed when
others--including those in China and the U.S.—have failed?

David_Sheff: johan, you're welcome. DFN, normally the gov't has attempted
to squash any forces that could bring about such changes as a freer press
and freer communication, etc., however, the government understands that
China—if it is to become a player in the global future—must
have a state of the art Internet. It is trying to have it both ways, but
whenever it attempts to control the Net, it slows down the Net's
potential, so it risks losing control in exchange for the highest
priority in China which is rebuilding the nation so that it is a third
world player.

DFN: Thank you. In your book, you write that these entrepreneurs think
they will not only become China's leaders in Internet technology, but of
the world as well. Do you believe this?

David_Sheff: DFN, in some cases I do. They have a lot of catching up to
do. For example, Legend Computer, the largest PC company in China, has
state-of-the-art technology and manufacturing capabilities. They also
have China's enormous labor pool. This means their PCs may be competing
with US and Japanese players in the not-too-distant future. There are
other examples as well.

DFN: Are developers in the U.S. feeling threatened?

David_Sheff: DFN, yes. Many U.S. companies feel that there is no
short-term threat, because Chinese companies have their work cut out for
them domestically. However, once they succeed on a large scale they will
have the resources to expand globally. None of this will happen
overnight. The big place for competition in the short term is the Chinese
market, which most U.S. companies are salivating over. The question is
whether the winners will be foreign or domestic.

johan: Your book is very character-driven, do you think you overestimate
the role of single individuals in what is a very large Chinese drama...?
I mean sometimes we see larger-than-life persons entering the stage (Mao
Zedong for ex), but would you say the Chinese IT-entrepreneurs will be
that important?

"[The entrepreneurs] are role models for young Chinese in a place where
there never were role models."

David_Sheff: Johan, I think they are important for a number of reasons.
First of all, they are building companies that will become China's
equivalent of Motorola, etc. But even more so, they are role models for
young Chinese in a place where there never were role models. They are
instilling a dream in Chinese citizens that they too can have an impact
on the future and change their world.

johan: Thanks again!

DFN: Thank you. Are you planning to write about them in the future?

David_Sheff: Yes. but I am not sure when. These people are my friends; I
will write about them again.

Beeman: How have these entrepreneurs been doing since your book was
published? Anything new?

David_Sheff: Beeman, good question. Some have done very well and some
have stumbled. Edward Tien has watched as the government as the gov't
radically reorganized China's telecom, splitting it into four pieces.
Edward overnight went from having 3,000 employees to 200,000 employees.
On the other hand, Wang Zhidong, the founder of Sina.com, has been
removed from his company by his board of directors. Sina is struggling
and meanwhile, Zhidong has founded a new startup. Lastly, Bo Feng and his
partner Eric Li are continuing to work to create successful
entrepreneurial companies: some of them are succeeding and some are
struggling.

DFN: Did they have any comment on your book?

David_Sheff: Yes. Both Tian and Feng seem somewhat embarrassed by the
attention but feel it is important to communicate with a Western audience
and seem excited about the book.

johan: Talking about the govt's own efforts, are ordinary citizens
satisfied with e-government?

David_Sheff: Johan, it's a fairly new effort by the government to use the
Internet to allow citizens to access the Internet and get information.
Where citizens seem frustrated by the limitations on the technology, they
also seem astonished that things are changing so quickly as they are.

DFN: Where are Tian, Feng, and company looking for guidance now in their
business?

David_Sheff: They rely on advisors from the West, particularly the
Silicon Valley, including investors and partners. Specifically, some of
their advisors include Sandy Robertson, a venture capitalist and Len
Baker. Edward Tian has advisors that include everyone from the chiefs at
Sun Microsystems to Rupert Murdoch.

DFN: Thank you. We have less than 15 minutes with Mr. David Sheff, author
of China Dawn. Please ask your questions.

johan: Will we see more western IT-investments in China as a result or
the WTO-membership?

David_Sheff: Absolutely, it is already happening. The WTO suggests a more
stable business climate and safer climate than in the past. This is
partly why so many investors are moving into China.

DFN: Have the entrepreneurs been active in protesting the spate of
arrests of Internet activists in China?

David_Sheff: No. The Internet has had a huge impact on the debate and
particularly it is a place where people have congregated to support
Chinese dissidents who have been arrested. According to some reports, the
Internet has helped Lin Hai get out of jail earlier than he was supposed
to. The entrepreneurs, however, have not been involved on a political
level. When their positions are more secure and are more established,
they will be more involved, I am sure. That is unknown, however. This is
only my conjecture.

y04: Is there any concern that groups such as the Chinese Hackers' Union
will oppose greater entry of American IT firms on nationalist grounds?

David_Sheff: y04, there are many people in China who worry about
everything from using Chinese culture to losing business opportunities
because of powerful Western companies. However, for better or for worse,
the business climate is one of survival of the fittest. It is not that
way yet, because Chinese companies still have cultural and structural
advantages, but that will soon change.

y04: thank you

DFN: Is this phenomenon of people who are living abroad going back to
their native countries to bring Internet technology back home evident
anywhere else in the world?

David_Sheff: Yes, it is evident in other places. I specifically hear
about such a movement in India, though I hear less about other parts of
the world.

DFN: Internet access is fairly widespread in India, no?

David_Sheff: It is true. Far more than in China.

DFN: Thank you. We have 5 more minutes with David Sheff. Time for one or
two more questions. Any closing remarks, Mr. Sheff?

David_Sheff: Yes, well, there is no certainty as to how this will play
out, but I have reported for quite a while on Silicon Valley in the US,
and I believe that the Internet to bring about enormous changes in the
world's most populous nation than any other progressive force. I am
cautiously optimistic. So I suggest we all stay tuned and watch how this
revolution plays out.

DFN: Thank you very much for joining us!

David_Sheff: Thank you! It was a great pleasure!

johan: Thank you David and DFN, this was really interesting.

*** David_Sheff has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)

lforlano: Great, thank you very much!

DFN: You're welcome!

Session Close: Tue Apr 30 13:01:53 2002

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Copyright (c) 2002 Digital Freedom Network (http://dfn.org). All rights
reserved. This article may be reproduced or redistributed for online
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