Dear Frans and dear all, the debate on the list is very interesting. I found Frans Limpens' reasoning, based on his experience in Mexico very enlightening. I agree that human rights education can not be "done" in a vacuum, just alongside algorithms and geometry....it makes sense if it is transversal, i.e. a set of principles which should inform life in its daily occurrence as well as a tool for looking at reality and acting into it. This is not only true of countries which are now struggling to overcome poverty (if this definition can be applied to Mexico), this is just as true for rich European countries. And it is even more important now that we have an involution of the (albeit) very imperfect democratic systems that had been achieved at least in Europe at a very high price (world wars, genocide etc.). I write from a country which is at high risk...a rich country which is quickly sliding into a new-ish form of authoritarianism, a "bad example" which is already providing fresh new ideas to lots of other would-be regimes in Europe and elsewhere. I am talking about Italy, unfortunately already fatherland of 20th century fascism, and now a new beacon in the world of new authoritarianism. Why am I speaking about that? Because this is a country which sits since long time in the G8, has a large economy, attracts vast numbers of migrants from the South, has turned from a emigration country to an immigration country etc, etc. But the really dangerous new form of authoritarianism that we are living through, based on total control of the media, large-scale government-promoted corruption, privatisation of all essential services without adequate guarantees of governance and protection of the consumer, destruction of the environment, aggressive foreign policy, racism and xenophobia, is at least partially the result of the lack for decades of appropriate civic education (which would cover most areas of "human rights"). My generation, for instance, (I am 36 years old) maybe relatively rich, take holidays abroad most of the time, may have studied also at Harvard, London or Paris and may be sending children abroad to study, but have never had the bare minimum of civic education, know what the Constitution says, know what are duties and rights of citizens. Generally we were never given the time, stimuli and opportunity for a collective reflection about what society to have and how to bring it about. The older generation has grown up in the charged tension of cold war (a frontier country), education being based on a vague concept that fascism was bad, but even more heavily on fear of what was behind the iron wall, the newer generation are just fed reality shows, nearly naked women etc. No real thinking and even less action was put into fighting entrenched "cultural traditions" (corruption, organised crime, discrimination) even when the country was starting to have enough resources to do so (resources are no guarantee that civic and human rights education will happen and the population will come to be full and conscious members of a democratic society). And the results are there to be seen for those who may care to really see. The new 21st century form of authoritarianism is born here (with similar phenomena elsewhere, most probably) in the heart of Europe and the European Union. Such results will be perpetuated by a school reform by this government which is based on religious (i.e. Catholic) indoctrination (including grotesque attempts at introducing creationism as the only explanation for the birth of mankind), xenophobic teaching of history geography etc., perpetuation of ignorance about what a democratic society is or should be and what part future citizens should have in it, and a giant privatisation of public school which will further decrease real education opportunities for the poor and the middle classes which will not be able to afford private education. I am afraid I have no practical measures to suggest to address the issues raised by Frans. In a way those of us in Northern countries who struggle to create at least minimal opportunities for civic and human rights education for the future generations are also looking at examples from the South to try and address the dreadful situation we are finding it not just in the immediate but also in the long term. What I can say is that I agree totally with the need to push not so much for a human rights education based only on legal texts but for a civic education which would focus also on democracy and governance as a priority or our educational plans for the new generations. thank you A. Caterina Italy ======== Global Human Rights Education listserv ======== Send mail intended for the list to <hr-education@hrea.org>. 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