DIGITAL FREEDOM NETWORK: Human rights and cyber-rights news Fighting for even one child URL: www.dfn.org/voices/honduras/asmachat.htm (March 14, 2003) As the United Nations Special Rapporteur of the Commission on Human Rights on Extra Judicial, Summary or Arbitrary Executions, Asma Jahangir has documented the killings of street children in Honduras by government security forces. Campaigning for the lives of children is nothing new for Jahangir, who has vigorously defended the rights of women, children, and religious minorities in Pakistan. Last week, Ms. Jahangir participated in a DFN chat to discuss the plight of Honduran street children, an issue currently overshadowed by the crisis in the Middle East. The transcript of the chat, slightly edited for clarity, follows below. moderator: Thank you for joining us today for our chat with Ms. Asma Jahangir. We will now start our chat. In 2001, Ms. Jahangir went to Honduras to tour Tegucigalpa, the capital city, and San Pedro Sula, and last year published a report that presents and analyzes information on the extrajudicial killings of Honduran children and juveniles. The report concurs that security forces have been involved with a number of killings and recommends that the government needs to take a more active role in the investigations to signal to the police that their blatant abuse of human rights will not be tolerated or go unpunished. Despite the government's small steps to combat the problem, the killings continue. Since 1998, over 1,600 street children and juveniles have been brutally murdered. Ms. Jahangir was appointed the UN Special Rapporteur of the Commission on Human rights on extra judicial, summary or arbitrary executions in 1998 by United Nations Secretary-general Kofi Annan. She is a prominent lawyer, who has worked both in Pakistan and abroad to prevent the exploitation of religious minorities, women, and children. Ms. Jahangir has authored two books, Divine Sanction and Children of a Lesser God, which are extensive studies of some of the laws affecting human rights, and has published widely on topics ranging from child labor to the electoral process in Pakistan. She is a founding member of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan and the recipient of several international awards and prizes including the 1998 King Baudouin International Development Prize and the 1999 Human Rights Award by Lawyers Committee for Human Rights. Welcome Ms. Jahangir. Any opening remarks? asma_jahangir: I think this is a very good way of interacting with people. It is a learning experience for me also to know what people are thinking. Please ask! muffy: What is happening to street children in Honduras is frightening, but I understand that this is also a regional issue with street children being murdered in Guatemala, etc.… and a global issue. I.e. the recent reports of abuse of street children in Egypt. Have there been any programs or policies in other countries that have been successful in protecting street children and can these be applied in Honduras? asma_jahangir: Muffy, I have expressed concern time and again that governments are not addressing the rights of the child. They are addressing their health and resources, but not their rights. This is very related to the policies of the government. This attitude and mindset has to change throughout the world, especially where populations are growing. I have not seen any government address these problems seriously. "There is a worry...that the 'game of the big boys' is overshadowing the life of little people." vijay: It seems that your mission to Honduras became overshadowed by more high profile events taking place in Afghanistan, Congo, etc.. and now most likely Iraq. How can we generate more international interest for these children when we are competing with issues that are of more strategic interest to many countries? asma_jahangir: Vijay, first of all let me say that all these issues of immediate attention also have a link with the rights of young people. The young people in these countries suffer too. There is a worry, however, in my mind: that the "game of the big boys" is overshadowing the life of little people. But I must hasten to add that as far as the Congo and Afghanistan, I have addressed the issue in both those places. There is still a reluctance among international decision-makers to discuss international justice. The politics of the world is shifting from principle politics to more pragmatic politics, which is harmful in the long term. Principle politics means that justice is brought to light but, in reality, governments are more interested in addressing more immediate issues, ones that are not necessarily full of risks. moderator: Ms. Jahangir, Bruce Harris of the Honduran organization, Casa-Alianza, with which you are probably familiar, wanted to send his greetings and apologies for not being able to be here. He is actually on a plane at the moment, but he says hello and wanted to ask you the following questions: What can the UN Commission on Human Rights do at their meetings in Geneva later this month to follow through on the application of your recommendations by the State of Honduras? Can we say that your visit and report were a success if the levels of killings of children and youth are increasing each month and there are no prosecutions of those responsible for the killings? asma_jahangir: Let me first answer Bruce directly: I don't count any of my reports as successes. At the same time, we must continue to try and to engage governments. In my report, I keep a follow-up of the countries that I visit. On the issue of the Human Rights Commission, I think the resolution on the extrajudicial killings must have more emphasis on child rights. Also, killings of children must be looked at on a global level, not just a regional one. vijay: Do you think conditioning trade or aid sanctions on Honduras would be effective? asma_jahangir: Klee, probably not. Our mandate covers the entire world, and we can only visit twelve countries in our entire tenure as rapporteurs. If we make a follow-up, it must only be an emergency situation. But let me add, Klee, that visits are not the only way to bring attention to this problem. I am a great believer that international mechanisms can support the work done domestically. It would be counterproductive for the very children we are trying to protect. If sanctions were applied to human rights abuses throughout the world, then half the world would be under sanctions. Conditionalities would be a better way of dealing with the situation. charles crystle: I've heard the Honduran president assert that he will do something about it, yet there have been no prosecutions. Can the UN in some way pressure Honduras to investigate and prosecute these crimes, to at least show some semblance of rule of law "I will not want to limit my dialogue on the basis of figures. The extrajudicial killings of children is important even if only one child is killed." asma_jahangir: Mr. Crystle, we are in continuous dialogue with the government and the human rights special rapporteurs have no way of enforcing the recommendations and can at best be persuasive. I will have to check them in the middle of the year. However, my concern is not simply increasing or decreasing figures; I will not want to limit my dialogue on the basis of figures. The extrajudicial killings of children is important even if only one child is killed. In my mandate, I have to link killings of children to extrajudicial killings and this is not an easy task. My inclination is to work in favor of children. But to get my mandate to be taken seriously I have to make that distinction. Sometimes that distinction is lost with local NGOs, which makes my task more difficult. When people ask me whether extrajudicial incidents are increasing or decreasing, I say that even if one child is killed this is a serious human rights abuse. Sara_McNeill: It seems as if the 'street children' have come to be regarded as disposables, not even victims. What else can be done to 'humanise' each individual child who lives and works on the streets so that their lives are valued? Perhaps giving these young people a voice to make their alive voices heard in the media to effect change in attitude. What do you think about including responsibilities of national radio broadcasters to provide programming which aids this change in attitude in the articles of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child guidelines to governments? asma_jahangir: I can only support that idea. Even in my report, I had a section called "child bias in the press and media." The milieu in urban areas—there is a kind of stigma attached to them and they are perceived to be all criminals. In Jamaica, I continually heard about "uptown" and "downtown" justice. Sometimes people forget that these children are aware and are not easy to fool. They will someday be the decision-makers of their society and I think there has to be a human face to the policies of government; the youth in these world are the assets of society. vijay: Has the UN created any training programs for the local media to address this situation? asma_jahangir: Vijay, I am not aware of the UN creating any media training but I am aware that the UN has addressed how a child's rights are to be perceived but there is more to be done in this regard. The UN has done remarkable work on child soldiers and they have included the role of the media. new: Why the human rights is just protecting children from the streets , what about the low middle class in Honduras, they are also a target and nobody says nothing about it. asma_jahangir: New, this is a very difficult question to answer. I can only look at my own mandate and when I did go to Honduras I did not only speak of extrajudicial killings of children but of the problems of all people. But I did have a focus. The UN does have a whole mandate but each special rapporteur can only cover his or her field. Moderator: We are now chatting with Special Rapporteur Asma Jahangir. Please feel free to ask questions. Frances_Owen: 67 young people were murdered in February, but no one has been convicted. If a plane carrying 67 people were to be blown out of the sky it would make world headline news and every effort would be made to discover the cause, in order to prevent such a catastrophe in the future. How can this problem be given world attention? asma_jahangir: I think first of all there is no formula and there are competing concerns for the media to pick up. However, I have seen this can be done most effectively by local groups. The advocacy by the local groups was one of the reason I was there. I am not involved in Amnesty's recent campaign. That would conflict with my work. It is hard to explain the delicate nature of the work we carry out. We need to be objective and neutral. To give you an example, my concerns are to bring some proportionality to our mandate: I cannot compare Congo with Pakistan although in Pakistan there seems to be a high rate of killing but in Congo this situation is critical. fred robarts: Aside from the clear need to investigate and prosecute more effectively, do you believe the authorities are still involved in carrying out the killings? If so, to what extent, and on what grounds? What about ex-police and ex-military? asma_jahangir: Mr. Robarts, this is a question I cannot answer; I would have to verify the facts on the ground. After my visit, my report shows very clearly that there have been a large number of children where children have been executed. Executed extra-judicially, that is. reenu paul: what is the ideology behind the extrajudicial killing of street children?can we call it genocide? asma_jahangir: Reenu, we cannot call it genocide. You must read the international legal definition of genocide. There is no one reason why the extra-judicial killing of children is taking place. There is neglect, a breakdown of the family system. In an overwhelming number of households the woman is the sole parent' and she is responsible for bringing up the whole family. When I say neglect, I mean by the government and because of the blindness of the judiciary and the insensitivity of the influential people in the society. Moderator: We have about 15 minutes left to chat with Ms. Jahangir. Please feel free to ask your questions. catherine: How can UN rapporteurs such as yourself remain objective and neutral and still be effective in bringing justice to those that are in such great need? asma_jahangir: Catherine, being neutral does not mean we don't take note of the problems. Our terminology must be careful; we must be factual. New: I have been trying to get refugee status is another country but nobody believes what is happening in Honduras how can I do to solve my problem? asma_jahangir: New, that is a very difficult for me to answer. I don't know where you are seeking refugee status from, what the laws are in your land, etc. christine_evans: I have heard some rumors lately that children who were in gangs and tried to get out (e.g., have the tattoos but no longer run with the gang) or who were targeted as potential members for gangs are in particular danger of harm by the police in Honduras. Is this true, and if so, is this linked at all to the many murders in Honduras? asma_jahangir: Again, this is difficult for me to answer. If these children chose to leave gangs, then they could be accosted by gang members themselves. goldencrab: You speak of the killings in other places such as the Congo and Pakistan. To what extent are the killings in these other countries related to children? asma_jahangir: Crab, there have been extrajudicial killings of children there as well. The difference is that there has not been a policy by the police to target these children whereas in Honduras that appears to be the case. In terms of the Congo, let me add that children are being used in armed conflicts but this is a very different type of killing and this has not been included in my mandate. Catherine: I have seen the problems with street children in Nicaragua. One of the main contributing factors there is a serious problem with drug addiction. Primarily the addiction to glue. Is this a similar problem in Honduras? asma_jahangir: Cathy, absolutely this is a cheap way of addiction; it is readily available; it is easily concealed. It is spreading across the globe. Moderator: A few people have wrote in wondering what they could do to help put an end to this problem. What are your recommendations? asma_jahangir: I think first of all: there has to be an outrage shown across the globe. Strategically, it would not be wise to target one particular country. Second of all, pressure must be place on the World Bank and IMF. They must pay attention to this problem and approach it at a country level. Then, we must bring more attention to the whole concept to the rights of the child. Governments must be sincere in addressing this problem. We need to give more voice to children so that they can know their rights and protect themselves. muffy: Has Kofi Annan addressed this issue in any of his speeches? asma_jahangir: Muffy, I am afraid that I have not read every speech of Kofi Annan, but I am certain that he has addressed the problem of child soldiers and trafficking of children. littlepanda: How did you get involved in working on human rights? asma_jahangir:Panda, it is a long story. Our country, Pakistan, has been under oppression for years. When you see the oppression you cannot help but feel outrage and take offense. Catherine: How can we get people within these countries themselves to advocate for their own children? asma_jahangir: Cathy, there are some good examples. Victims have gotten together to form organizations. The question of timing is very important. To pick one single incident and build upon that is crucial. Every single human being must be convinced that this is wrong and then to stand up for it. It is easy for citizens to feel that they can let the government do it. That is of course not true. International issues impinge upon all citizens of the world and it is important to let this silent majority be more opinionated. goldencrab: Are there any groups within the UN to which we can voice our concerns over this issue and possibly get results? asma_jahangir: Goldencrab, it is important to understand that the UN is made of member states and not human rights activists. My experience has been that governments tend to be more conservative, more backward than civil society. But there are mechanisms in the UN that directly deal with human rights and more pressure on these mechanisms must be applied so it is felt by member states. Then there are countries and regions that are more inclined to support these issues and they can be approached. Moderator: Well, thank you for joining us today Ms. Jahangir. Do you have any final thoughts? asma_jahangir: I know the anguish that people go through when there is this kind of painful violation against helpless children, especially when the results continue to be negative. But at the same time, I think that eventually there will have to be a shakeup on the national level, a shakeup of peoples' consciences. This will be much more effective than any arm-twisting of the international community. Moderator: Thank you everyone for joining us today. If you would like to find out about more DFN events, please sign up for our Events e-mail list at http://www.dfn.org/subscribe/index.htm. Copyright (c) 2003 Digital Freedom Network (http://dfn.org). All rights reserved. This article may be reproduced or redistributed for online not-for-profit use without prior written consent as long as DFN is recognized with this credit. For information about DFN's permissions policy, see <http://dfn.org/about/permissions.htm>.
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