Thursday, 27 October 2005 -- all day (08:00-22h00 GMT/UTC)
Join us for a chat on the latest developments in the severe humanitarian and human rights crisis in Darfur, Sudan. Over 50,000 people are believed to have been killed and thousands of others have died as a result of hardship and disease since the conflict in Darfur erupted over two years ago. Systematic human rights abuses have been committed by all parties involved in the conflict, but primarily by the Sudanese government and government-backed Janjaweed militia. Over 1.5 million civilians have been internally displaced by the conflict and 200,000 have sought refuge in neighboring Chad.
NOTE: This web page is automatically updated every 5 minutes. To see the latest questions & answers, please scroll down to the bottom of the page.
Background
The following websites and documents provide background information on the current human rights crisis in Sudan:
Report of the International Commission of Inquiry on Darfur to the United Nations Secretary-General 
Crisis in Darfur (Human Rights Watch)
Sudan: Human Rights Concerns (Amnesty International)
Featured Guests: Monim El'gak, Gerd Oberleitner and Abderrahim Sabir
Monim El'gak is a member of the Darfur Consortium, an African and International
Civil Society Action for Darfur, and former staff member of the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies, currently based in Khartoum.
Dr. Gerd Oberleitner is lecturer at the Institute of International Law and International Relations of the University of Graz, Austria, and Visiting Fellow at the Centre for the Study of Human Rights of the London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE). He has been an instructor for HREA's distance learning courses on the UN and the European human rights systems since 2003.
Abderrahim Sabir is Senior Programme Associate for the Middle East/North Africa at HREA. He has just returned from a 7-month mission as coordinator of the UN human rights monitors in Darfur.
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From the Moderator:
Dear alumni, Good morning/afternoon/evening!
Thank you for joining today's conversation about the continuing human rights crisis in Darfur.
We are very pleased and honoured to have with us today Monim El'gak (Darfur Consortium), Gerd Oberleitner (London School of Economics/University of Graz) and Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) who have made themselves available to answer questions despite their busy schedules.
You are encouraged to submit questions, or discussion points. To ask a question, click at the "Ask Question" link on the bottom of the page.
-Frank Elbers, Moderator
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Question by Hindowa Lebbie (ECPAT International, Thailand):
People fleeing from civil conflicts, earthquakes, floods or hurricanes do so for fear of their lives. What has the UN and other humanitarian agencies done to ensure that the human rights of people fleeing the conflict in Darfur and living as refugees in neighbouring countries like Kenya are upheld?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Hindowa, thank you for your question. The UN agencies and the various human rights and humanitarian NGOs are doing tremendous work in order to provide the safety, protection, and the basic humanitarian services to internally displaced persons (IDPs) and refugees in the neighboring country of Chad. This however should not sugest that IDPs and refugees are having an easy time. They are living in the worst condition you can imagine and need a lot of help, and that is where donor countries should not attract the aid fatigue syndrome and drop their contributions. Let's not forget that we are dealing with an internation crisis of huge magnitude: over two million people were forced to flee their villages seeking safety; they were uprooted from their homes and their lands and at times were separated from their kids. Human rights and humanitarian NGOs and the UN agencies are doing a wonderful job at the times at the peril of the life of their staff. A lot of hard work is being conducted by hard working and concerned people but it is never enough. We need to keep in mind that we are dealing with one of the worst humanitarian crises of the 21st century. Over two million people are living in extremly trying conditions to say the least.
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Agnès Coutou (UNDP, Timor Leste):
How do the UN and African Union work together in terms of human rights monitoring? Are the reports done by the monitors exchanged between the two missions? Is there a real collaboration in therory and in practice?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Agnes--I can speak of our own experience as UN Human Rights
Observers: we were able from beginning to the establish a good working relationship and to collaborate with the African Union (AU) officers, not only in the three Darfurs but also from Khartoum. We were able to build strong relations with AU officers and were able to collaborate on many issues. I am afraid I can't go into details because the work is still continuing in Darfur. All I can say is that the established work and contribution on the ground has tremendously helped in dealing with the human rights situation in Darfur.
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Question by Hindowa Lebbie (ECPAT International, Thailand):
What mechanisms has either the UN or the African Union put in place to provide total protection for children in Darfur, especially from sexual exploitation, labour or from being used as child soldiers by either side in the conflict?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Hindowa--The UN agencies and human rights and humanitarian NGOs on the ground are working to help provide protection and relief to all IDPs, elderly, women and children. The AU is monitoring the ceasefire and are trying to be visible in order to give a sense of security not only to IDPs but also to host communities of Darfurians. Each agency and NGOs has its own mandate and mechanism to help work on protection issues.
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Agnès Coutou (UNDP, Timor Leste):
Could you describe the differents mandates pertaining to protection hold by the different stakeholders (UN, AU, NGOs...)? What role can play the NGOs to ensure protection of people? Is "protection" not a meaningless word in that situation as we know that there were rapes perpetuaded in the IDPs camps?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Agnes, thank you for your question. As you know UN agencies, the AU
human rights and humanitarian NGOs are operating following their mandates. In the case of AU and the UN agencies - their mandates are decided by resolutions passed by the Security Council. The NGOs on the other hand have their mandate plus the Sudanese government has to grant them access to Sudan based on the kind of work they will be conducting. There is no doubt the for most the issue of protection is one of the hardest issues that we had to debate: how can we complement each other while still withing our own mandate in order to provide the needed protection for the IDPs. The UN headquarters use to see, at times four meetings a week, with all the players on the ground in order to ccordinate the work and find ways to complemente one another. I can tell what we, as Human Rights Observers, were able to do by setting up a protection mechanism: my colleagues had a meeting once a week with the chief Justice, the Head Prosecuter, and the Chief of the Police in the three Darfurs in order to raise the cases investigated. We were visiting prisons, detention centers, homes, IDP camps, and monitoring trials. As the Liaison Officer based in Khartoum my job was to meet with the rapporteur of the Advisory Council on Human Rights (a govermental inter-ministerial body), Dr. Abdelmonim Osman Mohamed Taha, and raise the cases that my colleagues were not able to solve, address the state's obligation under the UN resolution to grant access to my colleague to detention centers, etc. We also investigated the cases that were produced by the Advisory Council. We also held regular meetings with Mister of Justice. The UN mission in Sudan also set up a human rights Sub-Jim meetings where outstanding human rights and humanitarian cases with raised in a regular basis with the authorities. We wrote weekly and monthly reports for the High Commissioner's Office in Geneva and the Special Representative of the UN Secretary General in Khartoum, Mr. Jan Pronk.
This should give you an idea of the work beeing conducted in dealing with protection concerns. Still this is not enough because the AU's mandate is to monitor the ceasfire between the parties and we had only seven Human Rights Observers in the early months of the crisis covering an area of the size of France, over 150 IDPs in a vast area that has no infrastructure. Human rights and humanitarian NGOs as well as the UN agencies are playing an important role in trying to help provide by their presence in the field protection in the field. And I can tell from my own experience in the field that every time I come to visit the camps I hear and see a sense of security and relief from the IDPs by our presence on a daily basis doing various tasks.
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Question by Hindowa Lebbie (ECPAT International, Thailand):
The Report of the International Commission of Inquiry on Darfur to the United Nations Secretary-General indicates that the Sudan Government has not committed an act of genocide.
What elements need to be in place before gross human rights violations like those going on in Darfur can be classified as genocide? What is the difference between the situation in Darfur and the genocide that occurred in Rwanda and Kosovo?
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Agnès Coutou (UNDP, Timor Leste):
Can we talk about a genocide or acts of genocide in Darfur? In their last book, Julie Flint and Alex de Waal mention a directive named "Qoreish 2" that reportedly set some plans to get rid of the African tribes in Darfur by 2020... Another Millennium Development Goal...
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Gerd Oberleitner (LSE/University of Graz) answers:
Dear Hindowa and Agnès,
Genocide is defined in the 1948 Genocide Convention. Genocide means acts such as killing, causing serious bodily harm or inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction. These acts, however, have to be committed with the intention to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such. The Commission of Inquiry on Darfur found that these acts were committed, but doubted as to whether the intention to annihilate a group could be established as part of the government’s policy. You will recall that while in Rwanda this intention was clearly established, there were initial doubts, too, as to whether “genocide” or “acts of genocide” had been committed. With the emergence of evidence that there is a government policy in place to actually wipe out an entire group of its country’s population, the Commission of Inquiry’s assessment might change.
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Question by Tesfaye Bekele (World Vision, Ethiopia):
I have a question on International response to Darfur's tragedy. It seems like genocide is possible or permitted in certain parts of the globe like Darfur, which has a far reaching implication for us, the Africans. Of course, what did happen to those who killed millions of Rwandan & Burundian Tutsi's - a crime against humanity. I can't understand why Darfur's case received scant attention and unable to be on top of the World's agenda? Is that the failure of human right advocators to bring up the issue to the eyes of World Leaders and international community? Or that is the fate of Africans? On the other hand, is there any way that the UN & AU will be accused or charged by law for their inability or unwillingness to accomplish their duties?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Tesfaye Bekele, as Albert Camus, the French author, once said, we are all responsible in one way or another. We all receive the news through our TV channels, radios, newspapers, and the internet; the world has become a small place. But we need to ask ourselves what we can we do to help, and we certainly can do so many things. Any contribution to a humanitarian NGO working in Darfur will go a long way, any pressure on your governments, and policy makers, any raising awarness on the herrendous condition under which IDPs are living, is a huge contribution. We live in this world together and we can do, as individuals and as groups, so much to help Darfurians and others, and to contribute in a meaningful way. The UN and the AU are on the ground and are doing the best they can, but they cannot operate without the help of countries, be they African countries or the international community at large. We need to get involved and start building an active international civil society.
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Question by Bernice Galang (Philippine NGO Support Program, Philippines):
What is the root cause of all these? All we know is that it is a Muslim-ethnic group war, but what really is the source? What are the issues revolving around the war at Darfur? Who are the key people involved here from both sides of the fence?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Bernice, thank you for your question; this is certainly a very good question. I will tell you a story that I heard when I first went to Sudan; I held several meetings with Darfurians to try to figure out what was the root causes and how different tribes viewed the conflict. One of the folks I met, a Zaghawa, responded when a asked similar question to yours: we have always had our problems between tribes, nomads who bring their herds and abuse of the land belonging to a tribe, but we have always been able to resolve our conflicts through dialogue and we have been able to develop our own mechanisms to mediate conflicts. Things went out off hand when Shaytan (Satan) got in the middle. When I asked what he meant by the Shaytan, he said the government.
The tribes in Darfur have lived with each other for centuries and some intermarried. The main causes for this conflict that saw the first skirmishes in the 1980s are an awful drought, extreme poverety, weapons that found their way through Chad during the Libyan-Chadian war, the several Sudanese gobernmnts’ unwillingness to develop the region, and the politicisation of the conflict. The first outcry by Darfurians were about demands to provide basic social needs but took a different turn to become political demands when the government, not only, ignored the demands but begin playing the tribes against each other, by arming and giving free rein to Janjaweed. Even if the conflict is resolved, and I hope it will, it is going to take along time before we can work on reconciling the Darfurian tribes with each others.
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Question by Dhani Ram Sapkota (National Human Rights Commission, Nepal):
What are the root causes of Darfur Crisis? As immediate task victim protection using international human rights standards is one thing. But at the same time what is the starting point to solve the crisis in Sudan? What would be the role of UN in this regard?
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Gerd Oberleitner answers:
Salamat Sapkota. Abderrahim already described many root causes of the current conflict (see his answer to Bernice). Immediate victim protection is a very high priority indeed. Without intervention by the UN it is hard to foresee a solution.
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Question by Rowland Cole (Magistrate, Administration of Justice, Botswana):
What is the legal/working relationship between the African Union and the UN on the Sudan crises. Where does each body stand in terms of responsibilty, accountability, decision making and action taking? Does the AU report to the UN? If so what are the mechanisms?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Magistrate Rowland, thank you for your question. The UN’s presence/mandate in Sudan is set by a Security Council’s decision, which differs from that of the AU. The AU is monitoring the ceasfire between the parties involved in the conflict, the government and the rebel forces in Darfur (the SLA/M and GEM). There are memos of understanding between the UN agencies and the AU to collaborate and at times complement each other’s work. As human rights monitors, we had a good working relationship with the AU, but I am afraid I can’t go into details on that. I am not aware of a legal framework of the working relationship between the UN mission in Sudan and the AU.
As you know the AU’s presence is limited to Darfur. The UN is bringing around 10,000 blue helmets to the southern part of Sudan. So the AU is not involved in the rest of the country. Personally, I would love to see the AU playing a more active role in Darfur: such as policing the camps, monitoring the police behavior, and playing a preemptive role in the conflict. Each time the discussion between the government and the rebels approaches, we see an escalation in the attacks by both parties, because each tries to prove to the other that they still powerful. The AU can preempt that by sending soldiers to hot spots where the potential for clashes exists. This will not require a change in the mandate, because it is part of the monitoring of the ceasefire.
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Question by Rowland Cole (Magistrate, Administration of Justice, Botswana):
The establishment of the ICC is a step forward for the international protection of human rights. It is obvious that the Sudanese government's establishment of a tribunal is to frustrate attempts by the UN to try perpetrators at the ICC. How will the ICC overcome the question of contemporaniety.
The ICC's prosecutor Luis Moreno Ocampo has rightfully admitted in his report that the Court lacks the ability to execute its requests in the absence of state cooperation. Since it appears that Sudan is unwilling to prosecute those most responsible for the crimes committed there, how effective will the Court be. Are we just going to end up with another sanction situation that will only exacerbate the existing humanitarian catastrophy?
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Gerd Oberleitner (LSE/University of Graz) answers:
Dear Rowland,
Good to see you online again! The establishment of the Sudanese tribunal has indeed raised concerns. The statute of the ICC, in its Article 17, lays down the principle of complementarity, i.e. that the ICC will only step in when the national justice system deals appropropriately with a case. This system differs from the ad hoc tribunals which have primacy over national courts. The ICC may consider a case when the state is “unwilling or unable genuinely to carry out the investigation or prosecution”. The provision has led to lengthy debates in the drafting of the statute, and the legal situation at present with a national and international court “competing” is proof of the complexity anddifficulties which the principle of complementarity entails. In the absence of ICC case law there is no sure answer on how the ICC will proceed. Should the ICC consider that the work of the Sudanese tribunal lacks independence and credibility, does not rest on the principles of fair trial and due process, or that there are shortcomings with regard to the evidence or testimonies, it will have to conclude that Sudan is genuinely unwilling or unable to investigate or prosecute. The ICC Prosecutor is at present examining the Sudanese tribunal and has indicated that only proceedings which meet the threshold of the ICC statue will be considered sufficient for the ICC not to exercise its jurisdiction. You can check for an update http://www.icc-cpi.int/library/organs/otp/speeches/LMO_20051024_English.pdf.
The ICC does indeed rely on state cooperation. The powers of the Prosecutor, and the rules I mentioned above, however, are an important innovation in international law to exercise jurisdiction when national courts are unavailable, unwilling or unable to prosecute. Still, the problem of physically obtaining evidence or see individual perpetrators face the Court may depend on the cooperation of sovereign states – this is where modern conceptions of criminal responsibility still meets with a traditional understanding of the international legal order.
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Question by Geri Crouch (James Cook University of North Queensland, Australia):
Has the situation improved at all in Darfur since the signing of the 'peace agreement' between Northern and Southern Sudan? Did the death of the new President destabilise things further again, especially in Darfur? Or have these two incidents had no effect at all on the crisis in Darfur?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Geri, the situation in darfur has stabilized for a little while. Unfortunatly the last couple of months are seeing an awful escalation of violence in Darfur. There is a deterioration in the security situation and an increase in the number of human rights and humanitarian law violations continues in Darfur. IDPs are reporting increased concerns about their security and the level of protection provided to them. There are reports of shooting in an IDP camp in North Darfur that reportedly left 13 casualties. Witnesses reported that both “Arab” militias and government forces were involved. There are also unconfirmed reports that an unknown number of women were abducted during the attack. Such incidents have a longer-term impact on the IDP populations, reducing their perception of their security and limiting their freedom of movement.
The signing of the peace agreement between the government and the SPLA is moving forward since a new national government is formed that includes SPLA members and other political parties. The SPLA recently formed a new southern government that included most of the southern political parties and former rebel movements. But while this is having an direct impact on the South of Sudan, it is still not affecting the Darfur crisis. The death of the first vice president, John Garang, while tragic for the whole country and for southerners in particular, is not impacting, in one way or the other, the crisis in darfur. Certainly if he were still alive he could have contributed in a positive way to resolving the conflict, due to his charisma and the respect that he has among the Darfurian rebel groups.
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Question by Rowland Cole (Magistrate, Administration of Justice, Botswana):
It seems to me that the UN engaged the AU on the belief that Africans are best suited to solve their problems. Does this approach contribute to the apparent slothfulness of the international community to engage a more robust approach to the situation? The situation is desparate and more international commitment in terms of finance and troops are required.
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Gerd Oberleitner (LSE/University of Graz) answers:
I agree with you, Rowland. Darfur has long given way to new headlines, and the international media have moved on to the earthquake in Pakistan and the pledges made by donor countries to assist there, and to other events, making Darfur almost look like an issue for insiders. More international commitment is certainly needed. While it is laudable that NATO and EU cooperate closely with the AU, you will recall dplorable instances such as the squabble over the airlift for AU troops in June this year. On the positive side, this is also a new scenario and experiment for all actors involved.
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Question by Hindowa Lebbie (ECPAT International, Thailand):
The death of John Garand triggered a wave of demonstrations in which many people were killed and many were displaced in Sudan. Related to this have been some unverifiable claims that the Government of Sudan might have been involved in the death of John Garand. Can you support or refute such a claim? If so why? Has there been, or will there be any UN independent investigation into Garand’s death?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Hindowa--I am afraid I can neither support nor refute this claim, because I am not involved in any way in that matter. All I can say is that the loss of Garang is very regretful because he is a powerful and charismatic Sudanese leader, who believed in Sudan and believed in the possiblities of building a democracy and of reconciling the Sudanese with each other. What happened after his death is very sad. The reaction by the southerners while violent and led to killings and unjustified violence, is unfortunatly understandable. This is a leader that carried the hopes of most of the Sudanese in the south on his shoulders, and once the peace was achieved he was gone. There is an investigation being conducted whereby three parties are involved: the government of Sudan, the SPLA and the Kenyan goverment. Most of what came out so far suggest an accident.
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Question by Denis Ndour (Senegal):
The Security Council established a Commission of Inquiry in resolution 1564(2004). How can you eveluate the work of that Commission up to now?
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Gerd Oberleitner (LSE/University of Graz) answers:
Dear Denis,
Another alum of the UN human rights system course! The establishment of the Commission of Inquiry was a remarkable step in itself, allowing for the assessment of events, an analysis from the point of international law, and the identification of perpetrators. The Commission, composed of independent experts, is seen by observers as an effective and independent body, whose findings had a major impact on the way the international community dealt with Darfur. You can find the report at http://www.unsudanig.org/emergencies/darfur/reports/data/missions/commission-of-inquiry-report.pdf .
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Question by Narine Gasparyan (ABA/CEELI, Armenia):
Good afternoon: I understand that it is a very important step that ICC decided to start investigation into atrocities in Darfur. However, according to the news and the reports of a number of international organizations Sudan was initiating certain steps to establish a tribunal. What is the status of establishing such a tribunal and what are the steps that the international community is undertaking to ensure the independence and impartiality of that tribunal, given the fact that the Report of the International Commission of Inquiry on Darfur to the United Nations Secretary-General (Geneva, 25 January 2005) excludes the inadvisability of other mechanisms.
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Gerd Oberleitner (LSE/University of Graz) answers:
Dear Narine,
as I have mentioned in my answer to Rowland, the establishment of the tribunal in Sudan has met with critique and concern as for the seriousness of the Sudanese authorities to investigate and prosecute those responsible. From the point of view of international law, the tribunal is part of the domestic legal order and judicial system, and has to meet with international standards in order to be accepted alongside any investigation and trial the ICC opens. Human rights NGOs have called on Sudan to ensure the credibility of the tribunal, so that it can work alongside the ICC. (You may be intersted to read the opinion of the ICC Prosecutor on the tribunal in his report to the Security Council, http://www.unsudanig.org/emergencies/darfur/reports/data/missions/commission-of-inquiry-report.pdf .)
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Question by Sondang Simanjuntak (Solidarita Nusa Bangsa/Freedom-Equality-Fellowship, Indonesia):
I understand that there is a desire to bring the Darfur case to the ICC, but is there also any discourse to set up a Truth and Reconciliation Commission?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Sondag, thank you for your question. As I mentioned in an earlier answer, when the Darfur conflict comes to an end, there will be a great need for setting up a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. African countries have set up over 30 commissions, some bad and some have done a wonderful work to help move the countries forward. The latest of these is the Equity and Reconciliation commission, a body inaugurated in January 2004 to pursue out-of-court settlement of past human rights abuses in Morocco. The Commission is in the process of finalizing its report on past violations of the regime. There is, unfortunatly no discourse as of yet in Sudan; there are governmental attempts to reconcile tribes but nothing as formal as a Commission. The situation on the ground might be safe yet for such aternative. The government and the rebel should resold the political and humanitarian crisis beforehand. But this could be addressed in Abuja as part of any settlement to be reached between the government and the rebels, and South Africa has thought us so much about the impact of the process itself.
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Question by Hindowa Lebbie (ECPAT International, Thailand):
From the experiences of the HREA and the UN human rights monitors in Darfur, what lessons have been learnt and how can those lessons be used to avoid the Darfur experience at a global level?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Hindowa, the lessons are enormous from a human rights perspective, what can be done to avoid the crisis is, however a different matter. We, as human beings are doomed in this world to keep repeating the same mistakes. Over 10 years we witnissed the Rwanda genocide and we said never again, less than 10 years later: Darfur. We need more than anything a conscience, and a lot of hard work and direct involvement by all of us from different part of the world to push our governments, policy makers, legislators, media people, etc to mount as much pressure as possible to really mean it when we say IT IS ENOUGH. We need to build a stong and coherent international civil society that can advocate and keep the pressure on. The war on Iraq showed us a glimpse of what an international civil society movement can do: we witnessed protests by the millions in Barcelona, Paris, London, Casablanca, all against the war. That is what is needed when dealing with crisises of the magnitude of Darfur, Rwanda, and the current human rights situation in Niger and Pakistan.
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Question by Andrew Miller (Peace Brigades International, USA/Kenya):
First of all, thank you three for taking the time to share your expertise on the issues. I'm curious about the role of Sudanese human rights NGOs in dealing with the crisis in Darfur (or the human rights situation in Sudan, generally). Any insights on this front would be greatly appreciated.
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Andrew--Sudanese human rights NGOs and activists are playing an great role, at times at tremendous risks to their lives, in monitoring human rights violations and reporting on them. Remember that we were UN staff and thus were somewhat protected. Sudanese NGOs and activists don’t enjoy that luxury, and yet they are in areas where we, as UN Human Rights Observers and due to security reasons, were not allowed to go to. But the Sudanese NGOs are accomplishing all of that with very little help. They need financial help, they need training on human rights monitoring and documentation techniques, they need the international community to work toward providing them with some protection.
Last August, the Sudanese President issued the Provisional Decree on the Organisation of Humanitarian Voluntary Work Act 2005. The Act led to a number of NGOs and Civil Society Organizations (CSOs) voicing their concern about the Act as it violated rights guaranteed by the Interim National Constitution (INC).
The Act forbids organizations from raising funds both inside and outside Sudan without ministerial consent. It it mandatory for organisations to declare an annual budget which will be audited by the Auditor-General’s Office. (Article12.1 (d) and Article 36). For the purpose of this law all NGO funding are considered public funds and therefore in case of cancellation of registration, for any reason, all NGO funds and assets are confiscated by the Ministry. The General Registrar of Organizations may cancel the registration of any federal civil society organization or any INGOs if satisfied that there has been fraudulent behaviour or if they defy General State Policy. However the text does not define what constitutes fraudulent behaviour or ‘General State Policy’. (Article 10.1 (b)) Registration can also be denied on recommendation of any other technical or specialised government body (Article 11.3). National NGOs read this clause as placing them directly at the mercy of various security and intelligence organs.
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Question by Rowland Cole (Magistrate, Administration of Justice, Botswana):
What lessons has the international community learnt from Darfur? I ask this question in the context of the humanitarian crisis and the initial refusal of the Sudanese government to let the international community in. What should the UN do under such circumstances. Further, what should the international community do when a government is unable or unwilling to protect its citizens from killings, rapes etc. The issue of sovereignty creates a problem I guess. But does the UN Charter not have a provision for intervention under such circumstances?
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Gerd Oberleitner (LSE/University of Graz) answers:
I think the establishment of the Commission of Inquiry has proven very successful, and the way in which the Commission has joined forces with the ICC is an interesting example for future joint efforts. It has also become clear that the Statute of the ICC works; despite the fact that Sudan has not signed the statute, the situation is examined by the Court on the basis of the Security Council's referral of the case to the Court. And of course the situation is an important testing ground for the work of the ICC itself, but it is too early to give a verdict here. Still, all reactions have come far too late for the population on the ground, as with previous events.
There is no provision in the Charter which would allow for intervention. The Security Council may deploy military and non-military means when it considers there is a threat or breach of international peace and security. In other cases, the principle of non-intervention in domestic affairs (Article 2(7) protects the sovereignty of states. This provision, however, has to be balanced with the protection of human rights under the Charter (Art. 55 "the United Nations shall promote ... universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.").
The Darfur case is also an interesting test case for ideas which have been developed along the lines of the report "The Responsibility to Protect" by the International Commission on Intervention and State Sovereignty (see the report at http://www.iciss.ca), which held that sovereignty entails responsibilies towards the population, and that there may be a duty to protect (rather than a right to intervene) in certain circumstances.
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Question by Amine Ghali (Center for Arab Women Training and Research (CAWTAR), Tunisia):
Reports from international agencies about Darfur portray the situation as humanitarian crisis, wheras talking about the issue with Sudanese people (even the human rights defenders) portrays a conflict raisen from access to resources (almost frequent in the region) and accuse other players of this amplification. I think the truth lies somewhere between these two extremes. who should we trust and is there a way to de-politisize this issue?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Amine--The Darfur crisis is a crisis that has as root causes scarcity of resources, drought, lack of infrastructure, extreme poverety, and the government’s involvement in the conflict. It is also a huge humanitarian crisis: over 2 million people were forced to flee their villages and are living in camps under awful conditions. It is also a security and human rights crisis because attacks are still occuring, IDPs’ freedom of movement is restricted and women and girls who leave their towns remain at risk of sexual violence. There are reports of high incidence of rape of IDP women and girls in certain areas. IDPs and local NGOs continue to report on widespread harassment of IDPs, looting of IDP property and cases of killing. So it is a crisis of tremendous magnitude that is still going under our watch but we are doing very little to contribute to a peacefull and just to solution to it. The international community and the media seem to have shifted its focus back to the oting of the contitution in Iraq, the investigation into the killing of Prime Minister Hariri in lebanon, and to Syria. Sudan and the Darfur crisis are becoming irrelevant in a very critical time where much more attention should be paid to it. The UN High Commissioner on Refugees, António Guterres said two days ago that: « we are witnissing on the ground an important deterioration of the situation», and that « ... it is extremly dangerous, (and)horrible things are occuring.» It is a real crisis of huge magnitude by all means.
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Question by Denis Ndour (Senegal):
Sudan is surrounded by almost 5 countries which have civil war. Do you think there a is a link with those countries (Congo, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Uganda...) to solve the problem?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Denis, you are right, Sudan is surrounded by 9 countries each with its own troubles and some of the countries have tribes that are devided by the borders. In Darfur for example, the Zaghawa tribe exists in Darfur and Chad. This concern adds more pressure and sometimes widen the conflict. This is the outcome of years of colonisation and a drawing of borders that did not take into account the harm done to families, tribes, and to these countries. Africa is still paying the price. But we need, as Africans to rise above that and work toward pulling ourselves out. Countries surrounding Sudan ought to play a positive role in helping the parties reach a peaceful settlement. Africa has a history of alternative dispute resolution that it can draw back on.
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Question by Hindowa Lebbie (ECPAT International, Thailand):
Agnes’s question earlier today on collaboration between UN and the African Union is very important. What are the challenges the UN is having working with the African union in Darfur, and how can those challenges be utilised as learning experiences? What are the success stories so far in the collaboration between the two organizations?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Hindowa, the good will is definitly present because the AU and the UN are in Darfur to help end/manage the conflict and alleviate the misery of the IDPs and the host communities. The challenges are due in most part to the mandate of each party. As a human rights monitor we would have liked to be able to join the AU in their helicopters when they are conducting their investigative mission on the ceasefire. It would have tremendously helped us to conduct on site investigation into the kind of human rights violations that occured during an attack, which is our mandte but not that of the AU. It is a close working relationship that would carry a risk but has tremendous benifit when it comes to directly documenting human rights violations. Unfortunatly that was not the case. But the UN can learn and hopefully move to grant a better collaboration between both entities.
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Question by Narine Gasparyan (ABA/CEELI, Armenia):
Thank you for answering to my first question.
I am also interested whether there is an up to date statistics on the forcefully displaced persons amongst the population of Darfur and whether the human and financial resources of humanitarian organizations are equally placed.
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Narine--I believe that the UN has current statistics on the IDPs, and I share your concern and hope that the human and financial resources of humanitarian NGOs are equally place. NGOs do learn from past errors and are contributing in a positive way especially the ones that have long field experience.
Current statistics on internally displaced persons (IDPs) can be found at the website of the Global IDP Project at: http://www.idpproject.org/statistics.htm (Mod.).
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Question by Sisay Gebre-Egziabher (Ethiopian Human Rights Council):
We have three crises in Sudan, the southern problem, the Darfur crises and some problems with Eritrea and Ethiopia. I think we should see the problem in relation to the situation in the region. What is Ethiopia and Eritrea's stand towards the Darfur crises?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Sisay—I think you are right, there are regional ramifications that need to be dealt with. Still, there are also valid internal concerns in Darfur that the government has to show good will and address in a open and candid way. The rebel groups need also to go to the negotiating table with clear mandate/demands and a unified front, and should end the violence that is harming those they claim to speak on their behalf. When good will and good intentions were present, the SPLA and the government, through the help/pressure/sustained involvement of the international community, were able to reach an agreement over southern Sudan. Ethiopia and Eriterea, as neighboring countries are not moving anywhere else. They are always going to be where they are, and any resolution of their differences and contribution to helping Sudan reach a settlement will benefit the people of the three countries.
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Question by Narine Gasparyan (ABA/CEELI, Armenia):
My second questions related to strengthening domestic mechanisms: According to the report of the International Commission of Inquiry on Darfur the judicial system has proved incapable and the authorities unwilling to bring to the justice those involved in the violence. What are the results of the activities of international and regional authorities towards strengthening the domestic human rights protection mechanisms and domestic human rights institutions? Thank you.
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Narine--The Interim Constitution lays down in some detail the human rights standards embodied in international standards that the Sudanese government has ratified and the SPLM has promised to adhere to. A number of human rights norms, included in the ICCPR (International Convenant on Civil and Political Rights) and the ICESCR (International Convenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights), are specifically listed in the Power-Sharing Agreement and include: the right to life; the right not to be arbitrarily arrested; the right not to be enslaved; the right not to be tortured; the right to a fair trial, the right to education, the right to privacy; the right to freedom of thought, conscience or religion; the right to freedom of expression; the right to freedom of association and assembly; the right to family and marriage; the right to vote; the right to equality before the law; the right to freedom from discrimination; the right to freedom of movement; the rights of children; the equal rights of men and women.
But on the ground as regards the right not to be arbitrarily arrested, there are many political detainees who have been arrested and remained for months in detention without charge or trial, sometimes without being given any reasons for their arrest and without any access to their families or lawyers; as regard the right to a fair trial, the Specialized Criminal Courts in Darfur are still sentencing people in trials which allow statements made under torture to be used as evidence and limits the defendant’s right to appeal. In all courts, defendants receive sentences, including death sentences, often without having a lawyer to defend them; the State of Emergency remains in place in Darfur and East of Sudan.
The rule of law will be an important safeguard for the Sudanese people only when the laws are in accordance with international human rights law. For this reason, the revision of the laws building upon the recommendations of the JAM framework should be carried out now, and not in a year’s time. [Moderator's note: JAM framework stands for "Joint Assessment Mission Framework for Sustained Peace, Development and Poverty Eradication", which was carried out by the World Bank and the United Nations with the government of Sudan and the SPLM, launched on 10 April 2005, and provides an overview of development priorities until the end of 2007. For more information about the JAM Framework see this Amnesty International Press release: Recommendations to donors funding Sudan.]
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Question by Rosarie Tucci (LL.M. Student, Nottingham University, United Kingdom):
While there are no legal provisions (yet) allowing for humanitarian intervention, the international community could be breaking new ground to chip away state sovereignty (which currently enables governments to inflict, support, or by inaction allow human rights abuse to occur). After Rwanda and Kosovo, can we not use Darfur as a means to further legitimize humanitarian intervention? Certainly the AU should be first responders, but it's clear UN assistance, and even EU and NATO is needed, but why isn’t this approach taken sooner? International Commission inquires are essential, as well as, the ICC’s involvement to prosecute violators. These seem like long-term solutions, but what immediate solutions are present? How can we establish new international law that will in fact short-cut the process to mitigate the loss of life and human suffering?
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Gerd Oberleitner (LSE/University of Graz) answers:
Dear Rosarie,
I share your views that Rwanda, Kosovo and Darfur are steps in the development of an international legal system which is able to react fast and appropriately to genocide and gross human rights violations. I am afraid, though, that the development of international law is driven not so much by the need to protect the vulnerable, but by the consent of the international community of what is and what is not legally possible. In addition, while both the activities of the international community, e.g. NATO's actions with regard to Kosovo remain questionable themselves under international law, which does not set a good example. Short cuts remain desirable, but often problematic themselves.
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Question by Peter Kum Che Mebeng (Trauma Centre Cameroon):
My first question is going to focus on the aspect of impunity. When you are in a country of dictatorship, it is easier to identify the torturers even at different levels of interactions, both at execution and concealment of the crimes. In this case, responsibility lies in those who plan, conceal and deny, detain, kidnap, torture and cause to disappear. Also, the person who digs the graves, moves bodies and make them vanish, are all at the same levels of interaction and can easily be identified. As one who has been dealing closely with victims of various human rights abuses and violations from Darfur, I have listened to alarming situations and experiences that these people have gone through with their torturers. Yet they also relate stories of guaranteed safety from harassment of statements they make in anonymity and confidentiality, which has really never worked.
What is the role of the monitoring mission in guaranteeing security and safety in the face of massive violence?
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Gerd Oberleitner (LSE/University of Graz) answers:
The protection of victims and testimonies remains a challenging issue in the investigations of the ICC prosecutor. NGOs such as Human Rights Watch have repeatedly insisted that sufficient protection must be guaranteed, which in turn makes it necessary to ensure that appropriate resources are availabe to the ICC. Canada, e.g., has already contributed voluntarly. The Victims and Witness Unit in the Office of the Prosecutor have developed protection guidelines.
The Commission of Inquiry on Darfur has identified perpetrators in its report, but has not made their names public in the report in order to guarantee due process and because it was not entitled to investigate, but also in order to protect witnesses and victims.
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Question by Peter Kum Che Mebeng (Trauma Centre Cameroon):
Dear friends, I was unable to connect to this programme since yesterday and today I was almost feeling very frustrated. I will then ask my last question. With the establishment of the International Criminal Court, there seem to be an impetus of hope to victims that they can see they can see their torturers punished for crimes they have committed. Crimes against humanity as they are called. How can the court make such opportunity offered by this hope scenario to be of historical reality without letting victims into the same farced procedures embedded in referring and handling cases at this court. We see several cases resulting from the Rwandan genocide still pending for years and soon Darfur will be added to this facet.
Why did it take the Security Council such a long time to agree to intervene in Darfur where as the situation was worst than some of the crises they have easily agreed to intervene? Does the Security Council merit any reason for not being seen as flirting with the various situations?
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Gerd Oberleitner (LSE/University of Graz) answers:
Dear Peter,
as Darfur is only one of three cases (together with Uganda and the Democratic Republic of Congo) in which the ICC prosecutor has opened an investigation (and only one additional case, Central African Republic has been referred to the Court), it is yet too early to say how the proceedings will continue. In any case, the ICC is a new institution which brings many new facets to the international legal order, different from pending cases in domestic courts. What we say unfolding is a new approach to international obligations and individual responsibility.
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Question by Sara Ahmed (Sudan):
Are there any observations of any change of the policy of the AU in dealing with the conflict after the incidents inwhich 6 AU personnel were killed last week?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Sara--I hope there would be, especially a change of the mandate that would require the AU to become more proactive in helping the parties establish a real ceasefire by preempting the condition that could lead to a deteriaration, and help provide a sense of security at the IDP camps. It is a decision that has to be made in New York by the Security Council.
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Question by Sisay Gebre-Egziabher (Ethiopian Human Rights Council):
Dear Abderrahim Sabir,
Ethiopia and Sudan at one point complained that the Eritrean Government had contributed for flaring of the crises in Darfur. How do you see this? If that is true what is the interest of Eritrea?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Sisay—you are right, the government of Sudan has complained in the recent past that Asmara has provided the rebels in Darfur and East Sudan support. The good news, however is that both Eriterea and Sudan are showing lately a different attitude by promoting a peaceful settlement, and that is what is needed. The rcent visit to Khartoum by an Eriterean government official would hopefuly lead to a change of behavior in all parties involved.
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Question by Mohamed Ibrahim (American Friends Service Committee, USA):
How support groups in the US like Darfur Alert Coalition, which brought to the world the Children's drawings, become more supportive to the Darfurian people? Could you help in directly connecting Darfurian voices with their allies in the US? Could you provide us with direct testimonies from the field to be posted online (of course with their consent)?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Thank you Mohamed, please get in touch with HREA and we will see what we can do.
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Question by Beverley Turnbull (New Zealand Agency for International Develoment (NZAID), New Zealand):
I have just joined the chat and read the thoughtful questions and substantive replies. Thank you all for the opportunity to learn from both your questions and your answers. It is the beginning of a working day here in New Zealand, and I like to start with a positive attitude but - reading this page it is hard to feel positive about Darfur. Are there some positive outcomes from the human rights monitoring to date?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Beverley, we all hope for some positive outcome. The situation has calmed down for few months since last April; unfortunatly recent reports suggest a deterioration in the security situation and the resulting increase in the number of human rights and humanitarian violations. There are improvements in terms of medical care in some police station but sanitation condition remain of critical concern. Excessive use of force by police, torture and ill treatments are still being reported. Intimidation of victims by the authorities is still occuring. There is still harassment of NGOs, including actions undertaken by government authorities that impedes effective activity by international and national NGOs; arbitrary arrest and detention of personnel; judicial proceedings against personnel.
This is unfortunatly the current situation in Darfur and that is the reason why we, as activists from different parts of the world should not lose sight and should keep the pressure on on our governments, policy makers and the press. We need to press hard in order to show everyone that there is still a human rights and humanitarian crisis occuring as we speak and let the Darfurians know that the international community is not forgetting them. We dont want another Rwanda to occur on our watch. We need to do more work in order to keep the light on this issue, we cannot afford to turn the page and hope it will go away.
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Question by Alya Al Mulla (United Arab Emirates):
I always wonder what are the difficulties faced by the UN and other humanitarian agencies in operating saving people's lives in Darfur under these circumstances? And how can we ensure that people in Darfur receive all the supports sent from other countries?
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Abderrahim Sabir (HREA) answers:
Dear Alya, there are risks and difficulties involved in humanitarian work and Darfur is no exception. There are still attacks, intimidation, and sometimes arrests taking place against humanitarian workers. The rebels and the Sudanese authorities are both guilty of committing these violations against human rights and humanitarian NGOs.
On the issue of assistance, any help that you can provide to humanitarian NGOs operating in Darfur would reach the right place, any help that your government can provide to the various UN agencies working in Sudan would be of tremendous help to the people of Darfur.
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From the Moderator:
Dear all,
The first chat session for alumni of HREA distance learning courses has come to an end. Thank you all very much for the interesting questions, comments, and your dedication! And also a big thank-you to Abderrahim and Gerd for making themselves available to answer questions and to share their experience and expertises. I hope you learned as much as I did. Unfortunately, Monim El'gak was not able to join us due to problems with Internet connections from Khartoum.
In the next few days we will be reviewing the transcripts and see if we can add resources and summarise the main points. We will also consider how we can build on the momentum of this chat and all the wonderful resources that you brought to it and how we can advocate to keep the Darfur crisis on the international agenda.
Thank you again, and good evening/night/morning,
-Frank Elbers
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