Tuesday, 27 April 2005 -- all day (10:00-22h00 GMT)
Join Abderrahim Sabir, HREA's Senior Programme Associate for the Middle East/North Africa, for a chat on the latest developments in the severe humanitarian and human rights crisis in Darfur, Sudan. Over 50,000 people are believed to have been killed and thousands of others have died as a result of hardship and disease since the conflict in Darfur erupted two years ago. Systematic human rights abuses have been committed by all parties involved in the conflict, but primarily by the Sudanese government and government-backed Janjaweed militia. Over 1.5 million civilians have been internally displaced by the conflict and 200,000 have sought refuge in neighboring Chad.
Background
The following websites and documents provide background information on the current human rights crisis in Sudan:
Report of the International Commission of Inquiry on Darfur to the United Nations Secretary-General 
Crisis in Darfur (Human Rights Watch)
Sudan: Human Rights Concerns (Amnesty International)
Featured Guest: Abderrahim Sabir
Abderrahim Sabir is Senior Programme Associate for the Middle East/North Africa at HREA. He has just returned from a 7-month mission as coordinator of the UN human rights monitors in Darfur.
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From the Moderator:
Dear HREA volunteers and course participants!
Thank you for joining today's conversation about the human rights crisis in Darfur.
You are encouraged to submit questions to Abderrahim, who is joining us from HREA's office in Casablanca, Morocco. To ask him a question, click at the "Ask Question" link on the bottom of the page.
-Frank Elbers, Moderator
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Question by Fiona (UK):
I was wondering how effective the work of the NGOs in Darfur has been? Do they have access to the people and are they protected in their work?
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Abderrahim Sabir answers:
Dear Fiona:
Most of the NGOs in Darfur are doing a fantastic job. They all have access to people in the camps and some of them have presence in the camps. Most are working on humanitarian issues. In terms of protection, it is hard to say. They are supposedly protected since they signed an agreement with the Sudanese authorities before going to the field. But there were attacks on their convoys and some of the attacks were deadly. We were not certain of who is behind these attacks, some of them were acts of banditry but some were committed by the janjaweed or the rebel groups.
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Question by Luc (Kenya):
I thank you so much for what you are doing about the Darfour crisis, may God bless your work and HREA.
My questions: 1. I would like to know about what you've done concretely during your seven months in Darfour, which kind of activities, or which role HREA is playing or has played in this area where many human rights violations are witnessed, to address this issue?
2. In this issue, I think that the government and rebel group are main actors. Does HREA have any cooperation with both of them to stop human rights violations ?
3. Does HREA have a mechanism that allows it to take responsibles of human rights violations in the International Criminal Court?
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Abderrahim Sabir answers:
Dear Luc,
Thank you for your nice message and pertinent questions. HREA's mandate is in education and training, we don't actually directly advocate or monitor the situation. I was in Darfur for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR), which, as you may know, is monitoring the situation closely. As an UN human rights officer, I monitored human rights violations, drafted reports for the OHCHR, and conducted training to benifit human rights defenders in the Darfur region. HREA's role has been, and continues to be, to train human rights monitorsand raise awareness and educate about human rights around the world, of which this chat session is an example.
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Question by Amine (Tunisia):
I first wanted to thank you for sharing with us your views and experience on Darfur. My question is on the effectiveness of the international approach for the Darfur crisis. While the Sudanese government started to show positive steps with the international community in dealing with the Southern Soudan crisis; world powers (and the UN) did not grasp this positive momentum to deal with the crisis in Darfur, they rather chose a conflictual approach (sanctions, ICC). Couldn't the international community build on the cooperation of the government to solve the human rights problem in Darfur?
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Abderrahim Sabir answers:
Dear Amine, while I share your concern and feel that when positive steps are being taken we should recognize them and do everything we could to encourage the authorities to undertake more similar steps. On the other hand, we should recognize that an atrocity has taken place and over a million people are still living in the camps and have been victims of attacks committed by the janjaweed militia with the tacit support of Sudanese military. If we accept the premise that the culprit of a human rights attack on civilians should be brought to justice, then we cannot argue about the recent decision undertaken by the Security Council resolution. The Sudanese government had ample time to bring those who are behind the attacks to trial. They choose not to do so, and thus opened the door for more international involvement. The first resolution on Darfur talked about disarming and bringing to justice the janjaweed militia. None of that occured.
I also would like to inform you that we have always mentioned in our reports the positive steps that were undertaken by the Sudanese government. But I am sure that you agree with me when I say that we cannot ignore the issue of impunity if we want to build reconciliation and a state respectful of its own domestic laws and of international law.
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Question by Mary (USA):
Thank you, thank you, thank you for your work. I appreciate your efforts. I am very interested in how people with disabilities are managing in the camps and if the UN has been addressing the needs of families with children or other family members that have intellectual or developmental disabilities. I know in other countries where there has been major conflict, man children with disabilities die at birth or shortly after birth. Any information on that? Many people in conflict countries leave their family members in institutions. I assume they don't have institutions there. Is that correct?
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Abderrahim Sabir answers:
Dear Mary, unfortunately not much is being done on the issue of people with disabilities. The conditions in the camps are horrendous and heart breaking, and they are, as you can imagine worst for people with disabilities. There are no institutions in Darfur. It is an extremely poor area without the conflict. The UN has been addressing the needs for women and children, since they are the ones that are affected the most by the conflict; but there is really nothing that is being done for people with physical or mental disabilities. I saw a young man suffering from mental disability being attached by his family to the ground inside a tent by a rope. When I spoke to them they said they did not want him to get lost and they don't know what else to do or where to take him. These are very poor families and the only existing place is in Khartoum. They have no means and the conflict is making the situation worse.
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Question by Mary (USA):
I have a question about the elders. How are they fairing in the camps? Is it true that council of elders within the camps have been formed. If yes, how do they work?
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Abderrahim Sabir answers:
Dear Mary:
The people in the camps are all doing poorly, they are afraid of being forced to leave the camps, they getting small amount of food, they are afraid of the camps being attacked, and they dont know what tomorrow might bring for them. They are all in tremendous distress. The elders are certainly suffering worst. The tribes have authority figures dealing with internal issues, you will find in each camp Omdas (local chief), Sheikhs, etc, who are working with the members of their tribes and trying to organize their needs and speak on their behalf. As far as I have seen there are no council of elders.
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Question by Susan (USA):
Mr. Sabir,
Thank you for your efforts to educate about the crisis in Darfur. My questions:
1. One of the ongoing issues since the beginning of the genocide in 2003 has been accurate reporting of statistics. Dr. Eric Reeves has done exhaustive analyses of mortality and displacement rates, placing the numbers at 400,000 and 2 million respectively. The US State department is now apparently lowballing the figures to justify backpedaling on the determination of genocide, and consequently diminishing the need to plan and execute a more robust intervention. How has the UN gathered data?
2. I understand that about 1000 foreign nationals and 9000 Sudanese are currently involved in aid work. Are these numbers accurate and what is the most reliable source for them?
Thank you.
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Abderrahim Sabir answers:
Dear Susan:
Most of the UN agencies and NGOs on the ground are involved in humanitarian aid. The first UN resolution, last September, opened the doors for us, as monitors, to go to field and gather information about the human rights situation in Darfur. We were a group of seven monitors having to work in an area the size of France. There are approximately 150 camps in Darfur, there was no way for us to be able to collect information on all of the camps. We also tried to work on ongoing violations, so it was an impossibility for us to start investigating the real horrors that took place before the Darfurians flee to the camps. Remember, this conflict has been going on since February/March 2003. Human rights NGOs, such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, were not allowed to visit the country and when they were granted the visit they came for few weeks. In saying all of this I wanted to give you an sense about how hard it is to have an accurate number of the victims. It is still an impossibility to give an accurate data because the conflict is still ongoing, and the suffering is still ongoing. More work is still needed by all of us in order to get a real sense of the horror that occurred in Darfur.
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Question by Nikola (USA):
Thank you for your willingness to discuss with us your views on an extremely important topic. My question is the following: With the assignment of a Special Rapporteur by the UN to Sudan for the following year and the on-going process (often hindered by the Sudanese Govt.) to send criminal violations to the International Criminal Court. Do you anticipate that this assignment will provide more or less cooperation from the Govt. at this point?
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Abderrahim Sabir answers:
Dear Nikola, the Sudanese government has no other alternative but to cooperate, especially if the international community continues to be focused on Darfur. The Sudanese government tried to play the sovereignty card but it did not work even with the Sudanese political parties. Sooner or later Sudan will have to allow the ICC to investigate and prosecute the culprits. They have no other alternative but to cooperate with the international community, but we need to stay vigilant.
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Question by Mary (USA):
Thank you for your responses. It sounds very overwhelming and difficult (I know this is an understatement). Going back to people with disabilities, has there been any mention by the UN about doing anything for this particular group in the near future? Since people are leery of the camps are they just staying away and trying to manage on their own? Is there a large number of children soliders? How are they fairing?
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Abderrahim Sabir answers:
Dear Mary, thank you for your questions on people with disabilities, and I share your concern. There is certainly a need for more light to be shed on this. As far as I know, there is no mention by the UN for this particular group. I hope that individuals like us can write to their respective government and push for this concern to raised.
Everytime there is an attack or a retaliation on a village by the government forces, it causes more IDPs and more casualties. Humanitarian NGOs and UN agencies are doing their best to help these IDPs and the host communities, but it is overwhelming as a task.
In terms of child soldiers, I have not seen any when I was there, but we have heard of the rebel groups recruiting child soldiers. It is hard to investigate with them because most of their areas were a no go areas by the UN security team.
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Question by Mary (USA):
The UN Wire just came out and said the first UN peacekeepers showed up this morning in Sudan (12 Nepalese soldiers). Although the deployment will not be completed until September, how do you think their presence will stabilize the situation in the camps?
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Abderrahim Sabir answers:
Dear Mary, the UN peacekeepers are to be placed between the North and South of Sudan. They are not going to be stationed in Darfur; in Darfur there is a presence of African Union soldiers, around 3000 soldiers monitoring the ceasefire between the GoS and the rebels.
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Question by Avital (USA/Israel/Ecuador):
Do you feel any pressure to skew news or journalistic coverage in a particular way from any sides, especially the Sudanese government?
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Abderrahim Sabir answers:
Hi Avital, no there is no pressure. As UN human rights monitors we are governed by a mandate and we do our best to execute the mandate. They only pressure we get is when seeing the hardship the IDPs are going through and you start questioning yourself whether you are doing all you can.
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Question by Beverley (New Zealand):
Good morning (at least, it is morning here). I have just opened my emails for the day, so have joined the discussion, and have a few questions... I wonder if you could tell me whether, as an HREA human rights monitor, you are involved in any delivery of assistance, or whether your role is purely education and training? Also - do you provide training for humanitarian assistance workers? Have you any particular comments on how well child rights and child protection issues are being addressed in Darfur?
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Abderrahim Sabir answers:
Good morning Beverley, and it is around 9 pm in Morocco,
While in Sudan I was working as a human rights observer on behalf of the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR). I was monitoring, documenting human rights violations and reporting on them. But I also conducted training for Darfurian lawyers and local human rights NGOs on techniques of monitoring, documentation, and international instruments. As an HREA staff I am more involved on the educational side of human rights, conducting workshops in Morocco, giving on line courses on advocacy, etc. HREA does not monitor human rights violations, it is an NGO focusing mainly on human rights education and training.
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Question by Beverley (New Zealand):
Thank you. What is the focus of HREA's human rights education and training? Is it general human rights issues? Or or do you also provide education and training on specific issues such as child rights and child protection? Thank you for sharing your day and evening with us,
Beverley
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Abderrahim Sabir answers:
Hi again, Beverley. My pleasure. The focus of our education and training programmes varies by target group. HREA's training programme for NGOs often focuses on particularly skills like monitoring, advocacy, project management, and knowledge of international and regional human rights systems and standards. Our trainings of lawyers and paralegals on the other hand (recently in Cambodia for example) has more an emphasis legal frameworks. HREA also works in schools, either nationally in collaboration with both educational authorities, teacher training institutes and NGOs (such as in Morocco, Croatia, China, USA and in the past in various postcommunist states of Central and Eastern Europe and Central Asia) or in partnership with "human rights schools". The focus then is often on children's rights and child protection.
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Response by Beverley (New Zealand):
Again, my thanks. I used to work for a child rights focused NGO, and previously in teaching, hence my interest in these issues.
I wish you, and HREA success with your human rights education and training.
Beverley
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Question by Jana (Philippines):
First let me salute you and your colleagues for the courage to be in Sudan and to face its risks in order to give voice to the hapless victims. Clearly, there has been footdragging on many fronts and the intergovernmental processes have been slow in the face of massive numbers who are dying and suffering abuse on a daily basis. I was wondering whether all decision/actions must go through the intergovernmental mechanisms. Are there other options? E.g., can non-governmental humanitarian agents go straight to the ICC to petition for action on crimes committed against humanity by the government of Sudan et, al? The Commission Report provides the evidence.
Thanks.
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Abderrahim Sabir answers:
That I am not sure about, especially since Sudan as a country has not signed on to the ICC, hence the need for a resolution by the Security Council calling for the ICC to investigate and prosecute the 51 names given by the International Commission. Even this part is still being argued against in Sudan because the government continues to raise the argument that their judicial system is capable of trying human rights violators and therefore there is no need for the ICC to intervene.
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Moderator's note:
Only the Security Council may refer cases to the ICC for investigation and prosecution. The ICC will prosecute individuals accused of genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity, all defined in the court's treaty, the so-called Rome Statute. The ICC will help ensure that these serious crimes, which have long been recognized by the international community, no longer go unpunished because of the unwillingness or inability of individual countries to prosecute them. As Sudan has not ratified the Rome Statute it doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of the ICC. Therefore the Security Council wrote in its resolution that "the Government of Sudan and all other parties to the conflict in Darfur shall cooperate fully with and provide any necessary assistance to the Court and the Prosecutor pursuant to this resolution and, while recognizing that States not party to the Rome Statute have no obligation under the Statute, urges all States and concerned regional and other international organizations to cooperate fully. "
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Question by Geri (Australia):
Good morning Abderrahim. I am interested to know whether things have actually improved on the ground for people in the camps in Darfur since the signing of the peace agreement between the Government and the south of Sudan. We still get continual reports about women being raped, people being too frightened to leave the camps, not having enough food, water, etc. Or is the signing of the peace agreement a bit of a farce and just on paper and not working in reality?
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Abderrahim Sabir answers:
Good morning Geri: the signing of the peace agreement is between the government of Sudan and the SPLM/A headed by John Garang, in the Southern part of Sudan. Darfur is in the Western part of Sudan, and while ending a war that lasted over twenty years between the north and south will have a positive impact throughout the country, it is not affecting that much the conflict in Darfur. The issues, however, are similar to those in the south, the marginalization of the tribes is greater in Darfur. And yes, human rights violations are still occurring, and won't stop until a political solution is reached in Darfur. Now the question is how serious this government and the rebel groups are in sitting down and trying to reach an agreement that will send positive messages to the IDPs and help alleviate their fears and anxiety and bring about a reconciliation between the tribes. This remains to be seen. The food and water reaching the camps are scarce, and the fears and insecurity are part of the IDPs daily life.
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Response by Geri (Australia)
Thank you Rahim. Yes, that is exactly what I thought the situation was like. I am extremely interested in what is happening there as not only have I been to Africa many times and have also lived there for varying periods, but I am currently on the committee of the local African association in Townsville, North Queensland, Australia (near the Great Barrier Reef). In addition, I have many Sudanese friends who have come to Townsville over the last couple of years. As well, I tutor many of them in English at the local Technical and Further Education College. I am actually very reticent about asking them too much about their experiences back in Sudan, as not only would many of them be extremely painful for them, but also many of them still have relatives in Sudan and even in Darfur. They have come out here as refugees - from varying tribes, some from Darfur region, others are Denka and not sure about the rest. Once again, thanks for your information.
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From the Moderator:
Dear HREA volunteers and course participants, and, of course, Rahim -- today's chat session on the human rights crisis in Sudan has come to an end. Thank you all very much for the interesting questions and Rahim for all your insights in the situation on the ground.
In the next few days we will be adding additional resources on this web page, including currents news about the developments in Sudan, study guides on international humanitarian law and the International Criminal Court, and links to organisations that are trying to make difference and improve the situation.
Thank you again.
-Frank
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